Curse

Jetdoc · Nov 01, 2006, 09:39 PM // 21:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by reetkever

And... why the hell do warriors have high armor? It's because they're melee users, they are up front of a group and they are supposed to take the hits.

It's just common sense, you also wear a shield in front of you, instead is on your back, when you know that the damage is coming from the front.

On the flipside.

Me name Ugh. I smash stupid humans. Here comes big human covered in metal. Behind him is small human in his underwear.

ME SMASH BIG HUMAN!!!!

...and how realistic is that?

reetkever · Nov 01, 2006, 09:51 PM // 21:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jetdoc

On the flipside.

Me name Ugh. I smash stupid humans. Here comes big human covered in metal. Behind him is small human in his underwear.

ME SMASH BIG HUMAN!!!!

...and how realistic is that?

ehhh not a slightest bit of realism there. Why would I risk my live rushing through dangerous warriors, assassins and dervishes just to attack a monk who heals him/herself anyway? Not to mention that the melee users would chase me and still attack me from behind.

Lord Sarevok · Nov 01, 2006, 09:54 PM // 21:54

I like the update. The first time I went out in the sulfurous waste areas, it was a bit rough fighting the 6-7 group undead parties as I was still using a duo monk backline with only a little damage mitigation. Now I use a triple monk backline with a bit more damage mitigation and it's back to being pretty easy.

The key thing about this update is it is hopefully teaching the art of actually using damage mitigation. Having 2 monks, sometimes neither one a prot monk, just heal the tank while no one else is getting hit allows the cookie cutter builds to go do the damage unmolested from the rear. Now your cookie cutters will change, and they should think of packing blinds/snares/hexes to reduce effectiveness of enemy monsters going through your backline.

When I finish unlocking some more paragon and necro skills I might go back to the two monk backline but we'll see. The henchmen tend to be kind of bad compared to your heroes.

Eclair · Nov 01, 2006, 09:54 PM // 21:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by reetkever

ehhh not a slightest bit of realism there. Why would I risk my live rushing through dangerous warriors, assassins and dervishes just to attack a monk who heals him/herself anyway? Not to mention that the melee users would chase me and still attack me from behind.

If the warriors/dervishes/assassins are attacking you instead of your backline, then you just did your job^^

So basically, the monsters are doing their job in owning players.

Also, warriors have the highest DPS in the game, so if they're not getting targetted, use them to go after their backline.

reetkever · Nov 01, 2006, 10:02 PM // 22:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eclair

If the warriors/dervishes/assassins are attacking you instead of your backline, then you just did your job^^

So basically, the monsters are doing their job in owning players.

Also, warriors have the highest DPS in the game, so if they're not getting targetted, use them to go after their backline.

If monster's jobs were to own players, they'd have spells that hit for 500 dmg each, a permament Sprint on them, the ability to interrupt spells that are casted in 1/4 of a second, over a 16 points in Fast Casting, regardless which profession they were, and they'd have more armor than 2 real warriors have combined...

Ohhh wait monsters already have that :O

I'd say that ALONE gives them quite the advantage over real players.

Narutoscryed · Nov 01, 2006, 10:05 PM // 22:05

lol i love it when people refer to builds as cookie cutter.. thats gotta be the most ignorant statment i have ever heard.. and i have heard it a few times already in this thread.

At one point in time.. they where all brand new and top of the line.. they worked.. and they kept working.. they where the most practical... and most efficent.. so they should be known as "the right"

You go ahead and use your stoopid little i will do all this fancy smancy original crap and take 4 hours to kill

i will use my same old build that is tried and true.. and i will win...

its like this.. lets say we are both getting ready to drive to the store..

I get in my care and drive the same way i have for my whole life.. while you decide for some stoopid reason that "i dont wanna be like the rest of those lameass cardrivers.. they all use the same way of driving. im gonna change it up and be smeart" so you decide to steer with your feet.

WHO IS GOING TO GET TO THE STORE FIRST!!..

point proven.

Tallanka · Nov 01, 2006, 10:06 PM // 22:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by AaronSwitchblade

Wow, can people really stop complaining about this? When the old AI update made elementalist AoE DoT spells far less useful, they complained and nothing changed.

Most of this stuff people are complaining about, mobs prioritising casters, enemies running from danger, all of it only effects purely melee classes (read: Warriors).

I'm not saying this is what's happening in this thread, as yes, there are some things that need tightening - but I'm sick of all the WAMMO's (or DERMO's, that I would like to call WAMMO mk2) bitching about it - yes, you've been nerfed - yes, your strategy is going to have to change - stop complaining.

Actually this doesn't affect only Wammos, it also affects a small group of people I consider myself in:

Rangers who bring a pet. Being since, how now, the pet will follow your target to the end of the world, and there isn't a quick fix to get them to return to you.

And for all you people who say pets suck, don't use one, and all that other crap, tell it to someone else.

I have no problems with monk bosses running when they are attacked, I DO have a problem with no quick way to get my pet to stop following them into the next mob of monsters...

And that should have been fixed when it would get exploited during Alliance Battles in Factions...

Velath · Nov 01, 2006, 10:10 PM // 22:10

^^ I wouldn't argue point proven but meh, that's just my opinion.

When did this update come into effect, I was up till 11pm pst playing last night with no problems. Granted I've been using a sin and keep a couple of deadly art skills to hex slow or shadowstep/kd to those annoying kiters but it doesn't sound like the mayhem that's going on here!

Jetdoc · Nov 01, 2006, 11:29 PM // 23:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Narutoscryed

its like this.. lets say we are both getting ready to drive to the store..

I get in my care and drive the same way i have for my whole life.. while you decide for some stoopid reason that "i dont wanna be like the rest of those lameass cardrivers...

Ahhh...the lemming versus trailblazer argument.

To put a proper spin on your example:

You get in your car and sit in 45 minutes of traffic in the mainlanes of the freeway.

I get in my car and notice that there is no one on the "feeder" lane of the freeway - that is, the on and off ramps.

I decide to take a risk and exit the freeway. I may get stuck at the light on the feeder, I may not. But it's a risk because NO ONE ELSE IS DOING IT.

In the long run, I get to the store in 30 minutes because I took that risk of not following the "tried and true" herd method.

Ten drivers notice me do this. They try it tommorrow. It works. More drivers notice and try it. Now the "feeder" lane is the next "cookie cutter" build. Now all traffic is moving smoother due to my idea.

Guild Wars without innovation is...a game I simply don't want to play.

But that's enough deviation from the subject.

Jetdoc · Nov 01, 2006, 11:32 PM // 23:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by reetkever

Why would I risk my live rushing through dangerous warriors, assassins and dervishes just to attack a monk who heals him/herself anyway?

Isn't that what most players do in PvE? Take out the monks/casters first, and focus on the hard targets later?

Solar Light · Nov 02, 2006, 12:15 AM // 00:15

Sorry, but these Ai changes do not work in the realm of torment.

having been there before and after the changes, i can say its not working

when i try to cap stunning strike and one regular demon mob can wipe my party of henchies and heros repeatedly despite whatever i try to do, its just messed up.

0mar · Nov 02, 2006, 12:20 AM // 00:20

I haven't had a single problem hero'ing my way through Nightfall so far. My friend and I + 6 heroes and we've rarely had our heroes have DP. If there's a difference, I haven't noticed it.

Red-Tide · Nov 02, 2006, 12:40 AM // 00:40

Im finding the new system of using the flags to tell them where to go doesnt always work. I will tell all my henchies and Heros to stay put while I go do some aggroing and right as I hit the group and start to pull Dunkoro runs right past me and gets wasted in seconds while the rest of the hench and heros stay put. This also has happened to me with Koss. The AI changes are terrible, its almost unplayable in certain parts with henchies now.

Rera · Nov 02, 2006, 01:03 AM // 01:03

I'm beginning to think that which classes your players are, and which ones are controlled by NPCs, matters in the new AI calculation.

When I was mapping alone, I had relatively few issues, even after the new update (I actually didnt know what the update was for until Yun start talking to me about the AI problem). I'm a monk. I flag my henchies to stand at about longbow distance from the group I want to fight, assign targets to my interrupter(s), then call a target and let everyone get to work. Devona runs in, monsters attack her, nuking starts up, everything dies. Works out pretty well all around. Ranged monsters do target my backline, but it doesn't happen that often unless the monsters were too close to begin with. I, myself, don't get targetted that often either. I fought Margonites, Djinn, etc. and didn't really have problems unless there were bosses with 300+ damage aoe skills.

When I was mapping with Yun, I noticed things changed. Yun (warrior) runs in, all of the monsters ignore him and go straight for backline. They still don't target me that much, but our henchmen aren't so lucky. There's melee in our backline, choking gas and interrupts flying everywhere, and it's just an ugly situation overall.

My main problem was that flagging is the only way to get your henchmen to stand still and fight. However, flagging also makes all non-melee hench/heroes bunch up at one spot, allowing eles, dervs, and mesmers to take them out en-masse with their super-powered aoe (djinn, for instance, with their esurge/searing flames spikes).

Kiting is ridiculous, because of how the AI kites (both henchmen and monsters). You'll notice that if you pressure casters, but dazed on them, etc. they will run from you in practically a straight line path, as far away from the battle as they can. They don't even stay in the vicinity. The henchmen do tend to kite in circles, but very wide, liberal circles that makes aggro management extremely unpredictable when multiple groups are in the area.

To those who think this change was a good thing, please try doing late-game areas (Desolation/Torment) with henchmen before posting comments. From what I've read, a lot of you have no idea what the end-game content looks like. When every group you meet is like a GvG team, your backline is being completely shut down, and your team is being wiped out by aoe spikes, it ceases to be a game. You just die. And please don't talk about how it's good that PvE is getting closer to PvP. PvE requires you to face groups of 4~10 enemies again and again, monsters are lvl24~28, they often have their own special monster abilities, and they have boss monsters that do double damage. If it takes you 20 minutes to kill a single group, and a few of your people are dying each time, it is going to take you damn near forever to do anything or get anywhere, if you even manage to finish in the first place.

Clawdius_Talonious · Nov 02, 2006, 01:13 AM // 01:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by YunSooJin

The second problem is that Henchmen AI has changed as well. Either the AI has changed, or the AI is responding as it normally would, kiting around like crazy and then aggroing other monsters in tight spots. Maybe the AI was always this bad, and the change to the monster AI helped illustrate what the problem is.

I agree with this, a few weeks before release I was actually able to witness the henchies get retarded after an update, and the update notes stated they made "upgrades" to the henchmen AI or some such. I was hoping that this was temporary and that the henchmen would go back to heavily scripted AI routines, that they were just trying to polish hero AI by dropping it on henchies before Nightfall was released, but now I don't think it's going to go back. Missions I could solo and get masters are now more difficult (I can still get masters solo, but it's tougher) and places that I used to get past with ease now slaughter the henchies.. Warriors leeroy in ways I haven't seen since the BWEs, Monks kite into more aggressive monsters, these problems were virtually nonexistent and now they're back.

At least Heroes will sort of make up for this, after I get all 126 of my heros on my 9 characters level 20

Thallandor · Nov 02, 2006, 01:41 AM // 01:41

DumbNET screwing up their own game again trying to turn PvE into PvP.

Red-Tide · Nov 02, 2006, 01:44 AM // 01:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clawdius_Talonious

At least Heroes will sort of make up for this, after I get all 126 of my heros on my 9 characters level 20

I feel your pain dood...

Jetdoc · Nov 02, 2006, 01:58 AM // 01:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rera

To those who think this change was a good thing, please try doing late-game areas (Desolation/Torment) with henchmen before posting comments.

Maybe that's the point - for the final late-game areas, maybe A-Net is actually pushing you to team up with *gasp* Human Beings *gasp*?

YunSooJin · Nov 02, 2006, 02:00 AM // 02:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jetdoc

Maybe that's the point - for the final late-game areas, maybe A-Net is actually pushing you to team up with *gasp* Human Beings *gasp*?

I dont know what kind of discussion you're trying to push with your aggressive display of rhetoric, but here's my response to your little suggestion:

If I had to find 8 other people to explore the Realm of Torment in, I would never find a single person. Only people who want to do the storyline missions. If ANET wanted people to only play together, why would they offer henchmen in the first place? Henchmen are here so that enterprising people who want to go out but don't have time to sit around and wait XX hours for a possible group can do so. To provide henchmen that can't even progress halfway through an area is absolutely BS imo. GW needs to get their affairs in order.

Gwmaster · Nov 02, 2006, 02:03 AM // 02:03

i dont know if i am the only one who has this problem..but that ai upgrade is shit imo...the henches wont obey wen i call targets sometimes..or other times they just run to a mob even if this one is at the other way of the map, and.."now that they are so intelligent they can run away from nukers"....20 mins ago the entire henches+3 heroes got owned by 2 dryders....god i can almost solo these dudes...grrrrr

here is an exemple of the ai

Edit: Oh and Btw..yes i was in the realm of torment..even if that place isnt intended to be easy...getting whiped by 2 dryders is rediculous